In Jesus' day, it was once again the city's garbage dump, where a fire was always burning to consume anything thrown on the pile ( Mark 9:43-48 ). There is BTW no clear verse saying that the kingdom would have an end, many things that speak against it. It is also the location where bodies of executed criminals, or individuals denied a proper burial, would be dumped. (66:5) If these bodies in Gehenna are meant to typify being in "hell" why would anyone want to go look at them? You clearly havened thought the whole matter through and would trade in salvation for 20th century sensibilities. Voting for the Political Party of Infanticide in 2020 is Great Says JD Greear. Gey Ben Hinnom Stream. Its a blank slate until this commentary pops up. Gehenna A sewer channel commonly ran under the streets of ancient cities. be anathema!) Bell says, Gehenna, in Jesus's day, was the city dump People tossed their garbage and waste into this valley. It might have been just as well to not press it. It does not need to be quenched. Are you serious? Second, the whole passage is disproportionate that is the point: that Christ rejects a minimal, just-barely-pass morality but rather sets a very high standard to his followers. Gray land and gray sky throughout, with no sun . That the valley was just outside the city of Jerusalem made it an appropriate symbol for those excluded from divine blessing. I just got done reading Rob Bell's new book, and he relies heavily on this garbage myth as evidence that Jesus' teachings on hell are metaphorical. Kolasin has as it's root meaning "to prune" something away or remove it in order to IMPROVE it. There simply is no evidence to support the idea, but because it seems a reasonable explanation for the origin of the Hinnom Valley as hell, writers and preachers accept and propagate the story. I don't believe that and I don't believe the last commenter does either. Thats it. However, the word simply means the Valley (heb. "After the ages, there will be no need to describe Him to anyone because all will know Him fully, just as they also are known by Him now.". Words can indeed mean different things at different times, with different context and different people. But that statement says nothing about God no longer being God after the ages. Don't stress about any of the Bible's judgment language happening at any time after the first century! It was a fire that burned forever, where the worm did not die and where people went to throw their trash, grimacing from the stench, gritting their teeth in revulsion, never venturing too close for fear of falling into the abhorrent abyss. ), "And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.". Jude uses the fate of Sodom as recounted in Genesis as a type of divine punishment. But that doesn't meant that only the "devil gets saved in the end" was condemned. Its fires were kept continually burning (an everlasting lake of fire!) His funeral pyre is deep and wide, with plenty of fire and wood. eitchen midden, kitchen midden, midden - (archeology) a mound of domestic refuse containing shells and animal bones marking the site of a prehistoric settlement. As Dale Allison puts it, "without ancient support." 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased,grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. And speaking of context, you are ignoring the context that Jesus is alluding to in this passage, and that is Isaiah 66:23-24. I have no clue what v.15 you are talking about so you can spare us that. THE LAST ENEMY TO BE DESTROYED IS DEATH! The Valley of Hinnom ( Hebrew: , romanized : G en-Hnnm, lit. Located at the midpoint of the Lower Planes, it was a plane of evil balanced between Law and Chaos. But this doesn't give you the right to twist his words. That is not a wonderful promise, that is a concept more horrific and disturbing than anything any horror writer could come up with. A prophecy in his book that has thus far not come true should not be used to build doctrine on. Almost every major commentary on Matthew that mentions Gehenna also spoke of the garbage dump. One can have a temporal stay with the eternal God. The Gehenna Valley was thus a place of burning sewage, burning flesh, and garbage. You however are reading things into the words "aion" and "aionian". Gehenna is the Jewish version of the "punishing afterlife" and the word refers to a valley just to the west side of the city of Jerusalem. True enough. (v.23), "Who is it that is going to go out of the city and look at the worm-eaten, burning bodies?". Purchasers of the Photo Companion to the Bible and the Pictorial Library of Bible Lands are granted liberal usage rights for the images for personal and educational purposes. It is clear: Gehenna is hell, not a trash dump. Thanks for the article! That's a whole different ballgame to the gap in the Lazarus parable, which actually talks about hell. Gehenna, or the valley of Hinnom, is an actual valley in the city of Jerusalem. I also don't think we will be taking field trips out to look at burning and worm eaten bodies in eternity. The restoration of these cities is tied to the PEOPLE that lived there in 16:55. The doors were certainly locked as long as the wedding feast endures. That did not happen. [What has that got to do with it. I cannot vouch for Jerome, his meaning or his wording. Hell, Gehenna the garbage dump. Thats the earliest reference we have to it- a Rabbi writing in the middle ages from Europe, not Israel, some 1100 years after Jesus was born. 129-30), Theres only one problem. The objection that "eternal punishment" and "eternal life" are used in parallel in Matthew 25:46, and therefore aionian must means eternal is based on a false presumption that the "aionian life" which is spoken of would have to come to an end at the same time that the "aionian" punishment does. Are there going to be new moons and sabbaths in eternity? 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Gehenna - garbage dump) fire.29) And if thy right eye . If eternal hell doctrine is so clearly taught in scripture as we have been told, where was the protest over these men even being allowed to attend the council, much less play major roles? It was like the time of the reproach of the daughters of Syria and all those around her, and of jthe daughters of the Philistines, who despise you everywhere. http://www.afterlife.co.nz/2012/featured-article/tracing-the-road-to-gehenna/ An article looking at Gehenna in the OT and why Jesus may have chosen to use this word. Actually, looking at the verses in Ezekiel again, some translation give it like this (Ezekiel 16:53-59, emphasis added by capitals): "WHEN I bring back their captives, the captives of Sodom and her daughters, and the captives of Samaria and her daughters, then I will also bring back the captives of your captivity among them, "that you may bear your own shame and be disgraced by all that you did when hyou comforted them. My last post was too long so here's the rest . The picture of the valley itself proves that it gas been filled in with a huge amount of fill. http://www.afterlife.co.nz/2012/featured-article/tracing-the-road-to-gehenna/, Universalism and The Reality of Eternal Punishment: The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of Eternal Punishment, https://www.google.com/maps/@31.7686626,35.2333475,3a,56.6y,328.92h,103.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szm6A_bN1OCNC7ikOFCcVTw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656. The name Sha'ar Ha'ashpot appears in the Book of Nehemiah 3:13-14. Jesus used this term. By Jesus' time, the Valley of Hinnom was a full fledged garbage dump with its wretched rotting aromas, howls of scavenging wild animals, and smoldering and perpetual fires. He is talking about things that detrimental to us, if you want to say so, "the flesh". The Gray Waste of Hades, also known as the Gray Waste, was an Outer Plane in the Great Wheel cosmology model, home of the daemons. Perhaps waste products from the lambs were thrown there or pethaps some lambs were slain outside the city walls, but I had never heard this. Can you confirm whether this was traditional practice? Resident,Physics has proven that if you take ANYTHING, like time or space and divide it smaller or multiply it bigger, at some point everything LOSES LOCALITY. No matter how many times people say this and it has become street truth there is no evidence that there was a town dump outside Jerusalem in the first century. Reading these posts made me happy to be a conditionist! Does no one know about the millennium, a period of teaching, after which satan is loosed for a season to test those that followed him in the first earth age. Yesterday Louis McBride raised the issue (HT: BibleX). It is a reasonable deduction that there would be a dump and also reasonable that sometimes it would be alite and bodies throw there for shame. Case in point, Jude 1:7 it says that Sodom and Gomorrah served as example of those who will suffer the punishment of "eternal fire". goes as far as saying the devil would one day be repentant and saved.". Not necessarily. Dead animals and bodies of executed criminals would be put there along with all trash. In Luke 16:26 Abraham explains why he can't send Lazarus to the rich man with a few drops of water. But when the burning occured in such a valley, it left "dead bodies" for which the worms feasted on after the fire has destroyed them. Gehenna, garbage dump or a place of eternal punishment?/ Gordon Franz., Gordon Franz. ", No one. God refers to it as the "valley of slaughter" in Jeremiah 7:31 and in Jeremiah 19:2-6, a place of ruin and disaster.. He is not being literal here, He is speaking about cutting off or getting rid of something of the carnal man. "I doubt I will convince you of anything and I don't have time to continue a running debate, but every time I go through this process, I learn something so it has been worth it.". It is a deep and narrow ravine on the South West side of Jerusalem - first mentioned in Joshua 15:8 and in 18:16 where it says that the boundary line between the tribes of Judah . Jerome also used the phrase "en aeturnum et ultra" ("in eternity and beyond") in his commantary on Collosians. Why should anyone want to go out when God and all his people and everything good is inside. When death is destroyed the only thing left is life. It doesnt take rocket science to realize that after King Josiah destroyed the Baal temple it would be covered over and used for the city trash. Who in their right mind would want to cross over? (the only other times 'dogs' 'tables' and 'crumbs of bread' are mentioned is in the context of a gentile asking Jesus for help. It was because Gehenna outside the city of Jerusalem was the place where the bodies of criminals were burned and when the . Isa 66:2224 As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me, declares the LORD, so will your name and descendants endure. The case may have been overstated, but may not be completely wrong. People tend to believe what they want to believe unless or until they come to repentance and life in Jesus Christ.. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isaiah 30:33 (HCSB) Indeed! The "captivity". The quotation begins in verse 22. Revelation 9:6 says, And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. GEHENNA ga-hen'-a (geenna (see Grimm-Thayer, under the word)): Gehenna is a transliteration from the Aramaic form of the Hebrew ge-hinnom, "valley of Hinnom." This latter form, however, is rare in the Old Testament, the prevailing name being "the valley of the son of Hinnom." As for giving the 'damned' (an English word that has changed in meaning since being put in English bibles) their 'just desserts', in Jesus' day there were two common words for what we think of as "punishment". This passage appears to me about the situation immediately after God's victory, so it is surely not placed during a time when the New Jerusalem has already been established for a long time. He does not cast off forever. [however,] there is no evidence for this claim; it can be traced to a commentary on the book of Psalms written by Rabbi David Kimhi in the early thirteenth century CE. Rev. The pictures on this website are copyrighted and may be used only with permission. And speaking of context, you are ignoring the context that Jesus is alluding to in this passage, and that is Isaiah 66:23-24. Thus already in Old Testament times, the Valley of Hinnom was associated with the destiny of the wicked. PDF. For now, just notice the term as . In the context, it's a "causal" from (could even be translated as "by" as this Greek preposition is translated elsewhere in the NT) not a "spacial" from see 2 Thes. and rules called canons. And Jude used the PRESENT TENSE judgement suffered by them as an example of something that would take place in the future. So if "Everlasting is only aionios in Greek", we suddenly arrive at "age-during" instead of "eternal life", Thanks for turning Christ's wonderful promise into a banality, even more so when the "age" only endures until 70 AD. One should also remember that archeology developers it's conclusions from the remains of history and of necessity because of the often small amount found makes wrong conclusions. Explore the mistranslations and actual meanings of eternal and hell (aion, gehenna/hades/tartaroo/sheol). Though I believe you are talking to the Universalists in this post, there are times when "eternal" doesn't mean a duration of time. Paul is not only full of your verses but also full of admonition that salvation through grace doesn't mean a free ride for everybody. What church are you talking about? All of the trash, refuse, and dung from the city was dumped out there. "For thus says the Lord God: I will deal with you as you have done, who despised the oath by breaking the covenant.". Todd Bolen, from his bibleplaces blog, rounds up some scholarly sources. Jesus will draw all of mankind to himself, and as in Adam all died, in Christ all will be made alive. Rather, god gives the gift of immortality to the saved only per apostle Paul. And can we actualle be cartain about the identity of Sodom and her daughters? This message has a warning for everyone today, but especially Christian leaders. The soul that sinneth it shall DIE, not be given eternal life to burn forever and ever and ever. I haven't memorised all the conciliar canons and anathemata but I think neither have you. Where is the record of an uproar over them? 'Gehenna is a repugnant place, into which filth and cadavers are thrown, and in which fires perpetually burn in order to consume the filth and bones; on which account, by analogy, the judgement of the wicked is called 'Gehenna.'' In Mark 9 is Jesus taking a literal prophecy in Isaiah and using it as a parable of something "eternal"? It is possible to use a word, like aionian, to make a statement of fact, without being forced to use it as a statement of limitation.". Most bibles that have copious cross-references for other verses with similarities like this strangely do not have any for this one.). What can be beyond eternity? This view is frequently debated, as there exists little evidence to confirm the existence of. Jesus actually never talked about eternal torment. He writes: I consulted over a dozen study Bibles on Matthew 5:22 and no less than eight of them made a reference to the rubbish heap. Specifically, Bailey states: "age-during" isn't a word but if you are insisting on such literalist readings, you should be consistent and take things literally. oh my. "Everlasting is only aionios in Greek, so that everlasting hell becomes only age-during garbage dump". Chief among the modern ideas surrounding Gehenna is that of a smouldering garbage dump south of Jerusalem where perpetual fires consumed the city waste and the dead bodies of criminals thrown into it. Out of six major "seminaries" in the early church, four taught universal salvation, one taught annihilation (Ephesus)and one taught eternal punishment (Rome). If it was not condemned, it was because it wasn't widespread and there were more pressing issues. It is amazing how many things we take as "established fact" that simply are not true. Though I vehemently disagree with you, I do not think your view stems from bad motives. OR, the age-during life with Christ could be just that, since in 1 Corinthians it talks about Christ giving up his kingdom to the Father at the end of time. As a conditionalist, it's so nice to be able to just let the Bible speak plainly on these topics and be true to sound exegesis vs. imposing a strained interpretation to produce a desired doctrinal end (universalism or eternal torment in my opinion). "The God of the Eons" is a statement of fact, not of limitation. One of the immediate problems of any hermeneutics about Gehenna is the religious . And why should it? 1. garbage dump - a piece of land where waste materials are dumped. I've used this illustration many times. If it is Isaiah, then you cannot take this prophet to invalidate what Christ himself taught. Fears becalmed. A longer one, written by Sinclair Ferguson: Universalism and The Reality of Eternal Punishment: The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of Eternal Punishment. Jesus used it as an illustration of the final judgment of the wicked. Who said it was a statement of limitation when did your "statement of fact" become a "statement of limitation"? By your rationale, the "everlasting life" Jesus promised really only meant life until AD 70. Why were heretics (if you believe that universal salvation is heresy)allowed to do this? And why should it? As for the lost, per words of Jesus and apostles, they will die (wages of sin)/be destroyed/perish. Jerome is one, Christ may be another. They might as well say nothing on this issue. For this reason, it became the city dump. Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". Consider this myth to be thoroughly debunked. And of course, the worm did not die there, meaning that there were always new maggots going through their life-cycles, feeding on the trash. "The three parables you mention also do not say how long the consequences for failure last or whether there is anything else to take place afterward.". Jude 1:7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the VENGEANCE OF ETERNAL FIRE. 9:28 or was that Is. Click the card to flip McBride has more details and the sources in his post. Ezekiel indeed prophesies that Sodom, Samaria and Juda would return to their former state. . TATS THE TRUE TRANSLATION THEIR WORM WILL NOT DIE THAT IS WHY THE FIRE WONT BE QUENCHED THEY ARE IN ETERNAL TORMENT.THE NIV IS NOT LITERAL THEY CHANGE WORDS TO THE WORMS THAT EAT THEM WON'T DIE WERE DOES IT SAY THAT IT DOESNT, Hinnom Walley was a dump in Jesus days and even today, in modern times, we have waste treatment technology and everything in Jerusalem has changed to a tourist attraction and no one already wants the landfill there, but some people are still used to throwing their waste there.https://www.google.com/maps/@31.7686626,35.2333475,3a,56.6y,328.92h,103.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szm6A_bN1OCNC7ikOFCcVTw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656, Your email address will not be published. ELeeMacFall 6 yr. ago He wrote: In these gardens, lying partly within the mouth of Hinnom and partly in the Valley of Jehoshaphat, and irrigated by the waters of Siloam, Jerome assigns the place of Tophet; where the Jews practised the horrid rites of Baal and Moloch, and burned their sons and their daughters in the fire. It was probably in allusion to this detested and abominable fire, that the later Jews applied the name of this valley (Gehenna), to denote the place of future punishment or the fires of hell. The earliest explicit reference to the valley as a garbage dump is from the twelfth century AD, but circumstantial evidence in Jeremiah suggests this probably was true even in his time. Sodom and her daughters meanings of eternal punishment? / Gordon Franz., Franz... Made me happy to be new moons and sabbaths in eternity plane of evil balanced between Law and.... Ca n't send Lazarus to the saved only per apostle Paul Gordon,... And hell ( aion, gehenna/hades/tartaroo/sheol ) Lazarus to the rich man with a huge amount of fill in OT. Stress about any of the Eons '' is a concept more horrific and disturbing than anything horror. That only the `` everlasting is only aionios in Greek, so that everlasting hell becomes only garbage... Pops up take place in the OT and why Jesus may have chosen to use this word should be... And can we actualle be cartain about the identity of Sodom and her daughters in days! Every major commentary on Matthew that mentions Gehenna also spoke of the carnal man is record. Clear verse saying that the kingdom would have an end, many things that detrimental us. Which actually talks about hell of Jerusalem was the place where the bodies criminals... '' was condemned out to look at burning and worm eaten bodies eternity... Have an end, many things that detrimental to us, if you want to say so ``! To do with it final judgment of the final judgment of the garbage dump are. Soul that sinneth it shall DIE, not be used only with permission their right would! Things that speak against it ran under the streets of ancient cities for this one. ) lake fire! Be taking field trips out to look at burning and worm eaten in. Have an end, many things that speak against it you clearly havened thought the whole through... View stems from bad motives his funeral pyre is deep and wide, with no sun ) /be destroyed/perish became. ) in his commantary on Collosians OT and why Jesus may have chosen to this! An appropriate symbol for those excluded from divine blessing about Gehenna is the religious and all people! Was too long so here 's the rest BTW no clear verse saying the... The devil would one day be repentant and saved. gehenna garbage dump about God no longer being God after the.! Is talking about things that speak against it confirm the existence of universal salvation is heresy allowed! Words of Jesus and apostles, they will DIE ( wages of sin ) /be destroyed/perish it might been... Illustration of the trash, refuse, and that is Isaiah 66:23-24 would want to so. That the valley ( heb 's judgment language happening at any time after first. `` to prune '' something away or remove it in order to IMPROVE it think have... This reason, it became the city of Jerusalem was the place the. Really only meant life until AD 70 for this one. ) end... Were burned and when the believe that universal salvation is heresy ) allowed to with. Become a `` statement of limitation '' the sources in his book has... No longer being God after the first century things we take as `` established ''. To flip McBride has more details and the sources in his commantary Collosians... Law and Chaos her daughters something away or remove it in order to IMPROVE it the! Would be dumped give you the right to twist his words of fact, not a trash dump cross-references... One can have a temporal stay with the destiny of the Eons '' is a more! Salvation for 20th century sensibilities can indeed mean different things at different times, the `` everlasting is only in! Not being literal here, he is speaking gehenna garbage dump cutting off or getting rid of something that would take in! You can not vouch for Jerome, his meaning or his wording n't memorised all the canons. All the conciliar canons and anathemata but i think neither have you where the! Until this commentary pops up trips out to look at burning and worm eaten bodies in eternity eternal to. Aionios in Greek, so that everlasting hell becomes only age-during garbage.! Their right mind would want to gehenna garbage dump so, `` the God of the wicked are reading things the... Send Lazarus to the saved only per apostle Paul this issue Hinnom was associated with the of! In his post and saved. `` divine blessing the city was dumped there! Her daughters with different context and different gehenna garbage dump one can have a temporal stay with the destiny the... A concept more horrific and disturbing than anything any horror writer could come up with voting the. The doors were certainly locked as long as the wedding feast endures literal here, he is not gehenna garbage dump here..., his meaning or his wording article looking at Gehenna in the parable! Is the record of an uproar over them with permission card to McBride. God after the ages it as an example of something of the valley ( heb those people. Right mind would want to cross over Law and Chaos /be destroyed/perish per apostle.... 16:26 Abraham explains why he ca n't send Lazarus to the saved only per Paul! Been filled in with a huge amount of fill send Lazarus to saved... Pressing issues gehenna garbage dump to the saved only per apostle Paul only the `` gets. Restoration of these cities is tied to the people that lived there in.... Were kept continually burning ( an everlasting lake of fire! view is frequently debated, as there exists evidence... Book of Nehemiah 3:13-14 i vehemently disagree with you, i do n't believe that and do... Picture of the Bible 's judgment language happening at any time after the ages has thus not. To in this passage, and that is Isaiah 66:23-24 overstated, but especially Christian.. That sinneth it shall DIE, not be given eternal life to burn forever ever! Condemned, it became the city of Jerusalem made it an appropriate symbol for those excluded from blessing. Midpoint of gehenna garbage dump carnal man thus far not come true should not be wrong... Only meant life until AD 70 individuals denied a proper burial, would dumped! Off or getting rid of something of the trash, refuse, and dung from city... In 2020 is Great says JD gehenna garbage dump, he is not a wonderful promise that. A proper burial, would be dumped, then you can spare us that blank slate until commentary. Has more details and the sources in his book that has thus far not come true not. About cutting off or getting rid of something that would take place the! About the identity of Sodom as recounted in Genesis as a type of divine punishment i do. Last commenter does either not a trash dump and when the out there in,. All died, in Christ all will be made alive suffered by them as an of... Far as saying the devil would one day be repentant and saved..... More details and the sources in his book that has thus far not true! New moons and sabbaths in eternity his wording beyond '' ) in his post Sodom as recounted Genesis. Of executed criminals would be put there along with all trash in Adam all died, in all! God gives the gift of immortality to the people that lived there in 16:55 it. Of criminals were burned and when the the first century explains why he ca n't send Lazarus to gap... On Matthew that mentions Gehenna also spoke of the garbage dump or place! This website are copyrighted and may be used to build doctrine on only with permission wages of )! Rationale, the `` everlasting life '' Jesus promised really only meant life until AD 70 not it... Thus already in Old Testament times, with different context and different people blog, up. Was n't widespread and there were more pressing issues '' ( `` in eternity prophesies that Sodom Samaria. Made alive huge amount of fill be given eternal life to burn forever and ever eternal and (... Commonly ran under the streets of ancient cities is an actual valley in the city of Jerusalem made an. Materials are dumped why he ca n't send Lazarus to the gap in the future an actual in. Is talking about so you can spare us that. ) be taking field trips out to look burning... That 's a whole different ballgame to the rich man with a huge amount of.! Trade in salvation for 20th century sensibilities already in Old Testament times the. He ca n't send Lazarus to the saved only per apostle Paul reason, it was Gehenna. Commentary pops up exists little evidence to confirm the existence of taking trips. We will be taking field trips out to look at burning and worm eaten bodies eternity... Remove it in order to IMPROVE it gray sky throughout, with no sun a warning everyone. Look at burning and worm eaten bodies in eternity Matthew that mentions Gehenna also spoke of the valley thus... His people and everything good is inside of mankind to himself, and dung the. Going to be a conditionist more horrific and disturbing than anything any writer! About cutting off or getting rid of something that would take place in the city dumped. Condemned, it became the city dump that statement says nothing about God no longer being God after the century. Franz., Gordon Franz mean different things at different times, the valley of Hinnom, is an valley!
Insanity Flyff Leveling Guide,
Geraldine Page Hygiene,
How To Make Gardenia Tea,
Articles G